Hello folks,
In the Anybody model, there are a total of 12 deltoid “parts” – 6
that are scapular and 6 that are clavicular, in origin. Is there a way
to determine which parts belong to which of the three (clinical) heads
of the deltoids, namely anterior, middle and posterior? If there are
papers that cover this, I’d appreciate the reference.
I’m guessing all the clavicular ones are anterior deltoid and the 6
scapular ones are somehow distributed among all of the heads.
Thank you,
-Venn
Hi Venn
You are right about the anterio deltoid,
The muscle named “deltoideus_scapular_part_1” is the most posterior of
the deltoid muslce branches. So i think “deltoideus_scapular_part_1”
to “deltoideus_scapular_part_3” should be considered the posterior part
wheras “deltoideus_scapular_part_4” to “deltoideus_scapular_part_6” is
the middle part.
You can give the muscles different colors in the Arm3D/muscle.any file.
This can help identifying a particular muscle. Simple outcomment the
inludefile saying “#include “…/drawSettings/MusDrawSettings.any””
and replace it by for example RGB={0,0,1}; then the muscle will appear
blue.
Best regards
Søren AnyBody Support
— In anyscript@yahoogroups.com, “Vengateswaran J. Ravichandran”
<vennjr@…> wrote:
>
> Hello folks,
>
> In the Anybody model, there are a total of 12 deltoid “parts” – 6
> that are scapular and 6 that are clavicular, in origin. Is there a way
> to determine which parts belong to which of the three (clinical) heads
> of the deltoids, namely anterior, middle and posterior? If there are
> papers that cover this, I’d appreciate the reference.
>
> I’m guessing all the clavicular ones are anterior deltoid and the 6
> scapular ones are somehow distributed among all of the heads.
>
> Thank you,
> -Venn
>
Thank you, Søren.-VennDate: Fri, 13 Apr 2007 05:35:46 -0700To:
anyscript@yahoogroups.comFrom: support@anybodytech.comDate: Fri, 13 Apr 2007
12:34:51 +0000Subject: [anyscript] Re: Deltoids
Hi Venn
You are right about the anterio deltoid,
The muscle named “deltoideus_scapular_part_1” is the most posterior of
the deltoid muslce branches. So i think “deltoideus_scapular_part_1”
to “deltoideus_scapular_part_3” should be considered the posterior part
wheras “deltoideus_scapular_part_4” to “deltoideus_scapular_part_6” is
the middle part.
You can give the muscles different colors in the Arm3D/muscle.any file.
This can help identifying a particular muscle. Simple outcomment the
inludefile saying “#include “…/drawSettings/MusDrawSettings.any””
and replace it by for example RGB={0,0,1}; then the muscle will appear
blue.
Best regards
Søren AnyBody Support
— In anyscript@yahoogroups.com, “Vengateswaran J. Ravichandran”
<vennjr@…> wrote:
>
> Hello folks,
>
> In the Anybody model, there are a total of 12 deltoid “parts” – 6
> that are scapular and 6 that are clavicular, in origin. Is there a way
> to determine which parts belong to which of the three (clinical) heads
> of the deltoids, namely anterior, middle and posterior? If there are
> papers that cover this, I’d appreciate the reference.
>
> I’m guessing all the clavicular ones are anterior deltoid and the 6
> scapular ones are somehow distributed among all of the heads.
>
> Thank you,
> -Venn
>
Take a break and play crossword puzzles - FREE!
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
I have also been wondering about dividing the deltoid into the
clinical heads. I can easily see that the clavicular portion could be
considered the anterior deltoid. And, I initially thought that equally
dividing the scapular portion into 3 middle and posterior segments was
the way to go as well. However, I have been trying to look in the
Arm3D files to find some information relating information about the
muscles to that from the VU study (subject 2), from which I believe
these parameters came. I have not been able to match origin and
insertion data, nor the PCSA data for each individual deltoid segment
(I don’t know if this is on the webpage of the Dutch Shoulder Group).
However, when looking at Muscle-parameters-shoulder.any (which I
understand is only used with the 3 element muscle model), the PCSAs
are taken from Holzbaur et al; the total PCSA of portions 3 through 6
of the scapular portion match that reported Holzbaur et al (8.2 cm^2),
and sum of portions 1 and 2 is close to that of Holzbaur et al (1.9
cm^2). But when looking at Muscle-parameters-shoulder-simple.any,
these PCSAs are different than Holzbaur et al and I am not sure what
portions are what.
Could you help clarify where these parameters came from in order to
better define (less-objectively) the clinical heads of the deltoid?
Also, I have heard it said that this shoulder model in AnyBody is an
implementation of the Dutch model. But, I believe the Dutch model has
4 clavicular deltoid portions and 11 scapular deltoid portions. Could
you give some clarification on this as well?
Thanks a lot.
Chris
> The muscle named “deltoideus_scapular_part_1” is the most posterior of
> the deltoid muslce branches. So i think “deltoideus_scapular_part_1”
> to “deltoideus_scapular_part_3” should be considered the posterior part
> wheras “deltoideus_scapular_part_4” to “deltoideus_scapular_part_6” is
> the middle part.
Hi Chris
These are good questions……
I have reviewed the data from the Dutch shoulder group again regarding the
deltoid muscle and i have found this page
http://www.fbw.vu.nl/research/Lijn_A4/shoulder/VUstudy_inertia.htm#PCSA
here the PCSA reads out as 2460 as written in the model, and as you I have
not been able to find figures that would distribute this PSCA between the
individual segments either, there is one number for all. In the model I can
see that the PCSA is not distributed equally this distribution is an
estimation made in lack of data. The overall idea was to have more PCSA on
the middle part and then gradually reduce the PCSA towards both sides.
I think in order to determine the clinical heads of the deltoid muscle
elements the best you can do is to look at their geometrical location.
Normally when we compare the muscle activity from these muscles with EMG we
collect the muscle activity output from several elements.
You are right about the differences in the dataset for the constant strength
muscles and the three element hill muscles. This is due to lack of data in
the VU data set for the data needed by the three element muscles.
The origin and insertion points given for the VU data set are all given wrt.
a global coordinate system as I recall it. Then using the positions of the
bonylandmarks and the definition of the segments coordinate system given in
http://www.fbw.vu.nl/research/Lijn_A4/shoulder/isg/proposal/protocol.html
these global coordinates has been changed to local segment coordinates,
therefore it can be difficult to directly find the numbers in the model in
the dataset. That said the origin and insertation points of several of the
muscles has been modified for several reasons, normally in order to fit
moment arm measurements. In the model it will usually have a comment saying
//corrected if the nodes has been moved wrt. original data.
Regarding the number of muscle elements on clavicle and scapula I have
reviewed a few of he old papers such as :
F.C.T. van der Helm and R. Veenbaas
Modelling the mechanical efect of muscles with large attachment sites:
application to the shoulder mechanism
Journal of Biomechanics, vol. 24, no. 12, pp. 1151-1163, 1991
And
A finite element musculoskeletal model of the shoulder mechanism
Journal of Biomechanics, vol. 27, no. 5, pp. 551-569, 1994
These both list six deltoid elements for clavicle and scapula as in the
model.
I may have overlooked some of your questions, so please ask again if you
have more.
Best regards
Søren, AnyBody Support
From: anyscript@yahoogroups.com [mailto:anyscript@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf
Of chrisjgatti
Sent: 07 February 2008 15:24
To: anyscript@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [AnyScript] Re: Deltoids
I have also been wondering about dividing the deltoid into the
clinical heads. I can easily see that the clavicular portion could be
considered the anterior deltoid. And, I initially thought that equally
dividing the scapular portion into 3 middle and posterior segments was
the way to go as well. However, I have been trying to look in the
Arm3D files to find some information relating information about the
muscles to that from the VU study (subject 2), from which I believe
these parameters came. I have not been able to match origin and
insertion data, nor the PCSA data for each individual deltoid segment
(I don’t know if this is on the webpage of the Dutch Shoulder Group).
However, when looking at Muscle-parameters-shoulder.any (which I
understand is only used with the 3 element muscle model), the PCSAs
are taken from Holzbaur et al; the total PCSA of portions 3 through 6
of the scapular portion match that reported Holzbaur et al (8.2 cm^2),
and sum of portions 1 and 2 is close to that of Holzbaur et al (1.9
cm^2). But when looking at Muscle-parameters-shoulder-simple.any,
these PCSAs are different than Holzbaur et al and I am not sure what
portions are what.
Could you help clarify where these parameters came from in order to
better define (less-objectively) the clinical heads of the deltoid?
Also, I have heard it said that this shoulder model in AnyBody is an
implementation of the Dutch model. But, I believe the Dutch model has
4 clavicular deltoid portions and 11 scapular deltoid portions. Could
you give some clarification on this as well?
Thanks a lot.
Chris
> The muscle named “deltoideus_scapular_part_1” is the most posterior of
> the deltoid muslce branches. So i think “deltoideus_scapular_part_1”
> to “deltoideus_scapular_part_3” should be considered the posterior part
> wheras “deltoideus_scapular_part_4” to “deltoideus_scapular_part_6” is
> the middle part.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Thanks Søren,
I guess the current DSEM uses the dataset from Klein Breteler et al.
(J Biomech 32: 1191-1197, 1999), and this states that the scapular and
clavicular deltoids have 11 and 4 segments, respectively.
Do you know if there is any work on updating the current AnyBody
shoulder model to match the current DSEM?
Chris
— In anyscript@yahoogroups.com, “AnyBody Support” <support@…> wrote:
>
> Hi Chris
>
>
>
> These are good questions……
>
>
>
> I have reviewed the data from the Dutch shoulder group again
regarding the
> deltoid muscle and i have found this page
>
> http://www.fbw.vu.nl/research/Lijn_A4/shoulder/VUstudy_inertia.htm#PCSA
>
> here the PCSA reads out as 2460 as written in the model, and as you
I have
> not been able to find figures that would distribute this PSCA
between the
> individual segments either, there is one number for all. In the
model I can
> see that the PCSA is not distributed equally this distribution is an
> estimation made in lack of data. The overall idea was to have more
PCSA on
> the middle part and then gradually reduce the PCSA towards both sides.
>
>
>
> I think in order to determine the clinical heads of the deltoid muscle
> elements the best you can do is to look at their geometrical location.
> Normally when we compare the muscle activity from these muscles with
EMG we
> collect the muscle activity output from several elements.
>
>
>
> You are right about the differences in the dataset for the constant
strength
> muscles and the three element hill muscles. This is due to lack of
data in
> the VU data set for the data needed by the three element muscles.
>
>
>
> The origin and insertion points given for the VU data set are all
given wrt.
> a global coordinate system as I recall it. Then using the positions
of the
> bonylandmarks and the definition of the segments coordinate system
given in
>
>
http://www.fbw.vu.nl/research/Lijn_A4/shoulder/isg/proposal/protocol.html
> these global coordinates has been changed to local segment coordinates,
> therefore it can be difficult to directly find the numbers in the
model in
> the dataset. That said the origin and insertation points of several
of the
> muscles has been modified for several reasons, normally in order to fit
> moment arm measurements. In the model it will usually have a comment
saying
> //corrected if the nodes has been moved wrt. original data.
>
>
>
> Regarding the number of muscle elements on clavicle and scapula I have
> reviewed a few of he old papers such as :
>
>
>
> F.C.T. van der Helm and R. Veenbaas
>
> Modelling the mechanical efect of muscles with large attachment sites:
> application to the shoulder mechanism
>
> Journal of Biomechanics, vol. 24, no. 12, pp. 1151-1163, 1991
>
>
>
> And
>
>
>
> A finite element musculoskeletal model of the shoulder mechanism
>
> Journal of Biomechanics, vol. 27, no. 5, pp. 551-569, 1994
>
>
>
> These both list six deltoid elements for clavicle and scapula as in the
> model.
>
>
>
> I may have overlooked some of your questions, so please ask again if you
> have more.
>
>
>
> Best regards
>
> Søren, AnyBody Support
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> _____
>
> From: anyscript@yahoogroups.com [mailto:anyscript@yahoogroups.com]
On Behalf
> Of chrisjgatti
> Sent: 07 February 2008 15:24
> To: anyscript@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: [AnyScript] Re: Deltoids
>
>
>
> I have also been wondering about dividing the deltoid into the
> clinical heads. I can easily see that the clavicular portion could be
> considered the anterior deltoid. And, I initially thought that equally
> dividing the scapular portion into 3 middle and posterior segments was
> the way to go as well. However, I have been trying to look in the
> Arm3D files to find some information relating information about the
> muscles to that from the VU study (subject 2), from which I believe
> these parameters came. I have not been able to match origin and
> insertion data, nor the PCSA data for each individual deltoid segment
> (I don’t know if this is on the webpage of the Dutch Shoulder Group).
>
> However, when looking at Muscle-parameters-shoulder.any (which I
> understand is only used with the 3 element muscle model), the PCSAs
> are taken from Holzbaur et al; the total PCSA of portions 3 through 6
> of the scapular portion match that reported Holzbaur et al (8.2 cm^2),
> and sum of portions 1 and 2 is close to that of Holzbaur et al (1.9
> cm^2). But when looking at Muscle-parameters-shoulder-simple.any,
> these PCSAs are different than Holzbaur et al and I am not sure what
> portions are what.
>
> Could you help clarify where these parameters came from in order to
> better define (less-objectively) the clinical heads of the deltoid?
>
> Also, I have heard it said that this shoulder model in AnyBody is an
> implementation of the Dutch model. But, I believe the Dutch model has
> 4 clavicular deltoid portions and 11 scapular deltoid portions. Could
> you give some clarification on this as well?
>
> Thanks a lot.
>
> Chris
>
> > The muscle named “deltoideus_scapular_part_1” is the most
posterior of
> > the deltoid muslce branches. So i think “deltoideus_scapular_part_1”
> > to “deltoideus_scapular_part_3” should be considered the posterior
part
> > wheras “deltoideus_scapular_part_4” to
“deltoideus_scapular_part_6” is
> > the middle part.
>
>
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>